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Updated : 26/03/2019.  


   Battery charger repairs, most makes catered for. Elektroblock EBL 99 repairs at £130

                    

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Motorhome LITHIUM ION Batteries - The way we see it, without the marketing hype.


Or shall we start with all the marketing hype first?

Have a read of this thread. 

 https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/advice-on-lithium-or-just-some-different-lead-acid-batteries.190087/page-3


In the thread, Zigisla, who had Lithiums fitted in Jan 2019 is repeating the same info that was shown to be false in 2017, so  Zigisla is probably repeating what they have seen in the sales brochure. Indeed the Installers brochure reiterates additional false information, see full document at the bottom of this web page.


He writes, "As we know Lead Acid batteries are only good for 50% Ah value where as Lithium is nigh on 100%. Therefore 100Ah Lithium is equivalent to 200Ah LA".  

Sorry Zigisla but that isn't the case. 


It has been long known that the Exide G80, introduced over 18 years ago, could be discharged to 80% DOD and still deliver useful life. This battery is legendary, selling more of this model in the last 20 years than any other motorhome Leisure battery, so why isn't that being used as the benchmark by the Lithium retailers?


There are also Lead Acid batteries that discharge right down to 100% Depth Of Discharge (DOD) and still give strong life. 

Of one of them the manufacturer writes -

"The Super Cycle batteries are the result of recent battery electrochemistry developments. The paste of the positive plates is less sensitive to softening, even in case of repeated 100% discharge of the battery, and new additives to the electrolyte reduce sulfation in case of deep discharge".


See the documents from the highly respected Victron Energy company further down the page for proof of such batteries capability. 


So that is two things that contradict the usual Lithium 'marketing' mis-information, here are several more :


Further to the above batteries, there are additionally Lead Acid batteries that have 1,500 cycles, even when discharged down to 80% DOD and a huge 4,500 cycles when shallow discharged to 30% DOD. 

See the evidence/graphs below that show 3 different battery ranges, that not only drop to 80% DOD, but they all deliver useful cycles at that ultra deep depth of discharge -



The Green column batteries are big so not suitable for a motorhome installation, but shows what is available, yet conveniently ignored by the Lithium marketing teams who seem to be comparing their Lithiums to the poorest quality Lead Car Starter battery technology from the 1980's. 

Clearly comparisons designed to deceive.



Lets examine the brochure statement, "the lithium gives 100% of the power as useful power so 1 x lithium = 2 x lead acid for power".

If you look at the Lithium cycle life versus Depth Of Discharge graph below, you will see how the number of available cycles 'drops like a stone' the deeper you discharge it? 

 



The cycle life when only shallow discharged to 20% DOD is good, but when deeply discharged to 80% it is much lower. 

You can clearly see how a Lithium battery can be discharged to 90% DOD, but you suffer massive loss of cycle life if you do.

According to that graph, if we assume that the very shallow 20% DOD discharge figure is equivalent to 3,000 cycles, then the 100% figure is a miserable 500 cycles. 


That is a huge amount of lost life if you do discharge a Lithium to 100% DOD, and clearly why the most honest retailers/manufacturers are now quoting Lithium 'realistic' operating ranges between 20% and 80% DOD,  which is also discussed in the thread above. More on that below.

The renowned charger manufacturer Votronic, Battery University, etc. all say never discharge a Lithium to 100% or stress in the battery will occur. If a Lithium battery is damaged in any way there is a risk of fire.  


The Lithium marketing teams are quoting the shallow discharge figures, yet encouraging 100% discharge, without explaining about the massive loss of cycle life. 


It is because of the huge loss of cycle life from Deep Discharging, that the Lead Acid manufacturers recommend 50% DOD as the best compromise between life and usability. It is not a physical limit. Even a sub £100 battery like a Varta LFD90 can be discharged to 90% DOD, but it won't give it's best life. Just as a Lithium won't.


Contrary to the Lithium mis-information, the best Lead batteries can discharge to 100% and give useful life, the Victron Super Cycle battery is a perfect example, and if you compare that to a Lithium, with it's 'ideal' operating range of just 20% down to 80% DOD, the tables turn around dramatically in the opposite direction. 

A Lithium used sensibly will then deliver just 60Ah usable power, whereas the Victron Super Cycle Lead acid battery can deliver a full 100Ah. Click here for the Super Cycle Lead battery at £269

That is 40% more power in the Lead Acid batteries favour, totally the reverse of the Lithium marketing misinformation.


Obviously my comparison is as much a nonsense as those of the Lithium marketing teams, as there are so many factors to consider, but clearly "lithium doesn't deliver 100% of the power AND  "1 x lithium doesn't = 2 x lead acid for power"



Whether you believe us or not, we suggest that before you buy a Lithium battery for a motorhome, ask to see the graphs specific to that manufacturer so you can see if it will give you the lifetime you require for your specific use. 

You may find the real figure is a long way from the sales brochure figure.



People sometimes specifically opt to buy Lithiums because of the claims - "they discharge to 100% DOD", yet you can see how far the marketing is out of step with real world performance? 




Below, we repeat the chart first shown above to show the Lead batteries the Lithium bandwagon says don't exist are very much available.

Victron motorhome appropriate batteries (Plum coloured column) with a massive 1,750 cycles at 30% DOD are available at about £266. As can be seen, like all other battery types, if you discharge them deeply you will pay in battery lifetime.






The Gel Deep Cycle batteries, like the Victron Energy 12-110, are true high cycle Gel batteries that get close to Lithiums (in real world motorhome use) when discharged right down to 80% DOD. 

For example a Victron Energy Deep Cycle Gel battery has a 12 year design life, max 1750 cycles and an average 1,000 cycles, not far behind a typical Lithium, for a fraction of the cost.

If you really need ultra long life, just over £1,000 buys 4 x Victron Gel batteries, installed one after the other, that will give a total of 4,000 cycles and 48 year life. 

On a £ for £ basis, that beats Lithiums hands down.



It is not just the above 'expensive' batteries that prove the Lithium advertising is deceptive, if you compare Lithium to the best Wet Acid Lead batteries on the fairest £ for £ basis, Lithium still fails to be cost effective. 

You can install 10 x the latest technology EFB Yuasa L36-EFB '4 year life' batteries, one after the other, with a total 40 year life and 2,300 cycles for half the cost of the average Lithium battery, once you add it's supporting electronics and installation costs. 

40 years life? How is the typical Lithium battery better than that? No tricky installation costs or compromises on reliability, no charger upgrades, no risk of becoming a blazing Inferno, no requirement for ultra TLC in Winter, no cold temperature charging issues, no high temperature charging issues, no warranty issues, no insurance issues, just normal motorhome batteries that will last you 40 years.



As for Lithium battery lifetime there are claims of huge lifetime, if that is the case why does the NDS LifePo4 battery only have a 3 year Warranty? And why does the EZA130 have only a very feeble 2 year warranty


Isn't a 2 year warranty on a 'ultra heavy duty long life' battery with a claimed 10 year life totally at odds with the marketing? Even Platinum Batteries get a 3 year warranty.

Did I mention the EZA130 Lithium battery has to have an annual check otherwise the battery warranty becomes void? 
You have to take the motorhome back to the installer every 12 months for a battery check-up or the warranty will be void.


To me that sounds a little bit like, "We know it's not going to deliver the claimed life, so lets put as many barriers as we can in the way of anyone making a claim". 

Have a read of the NDS Lithium warranty, the document is huge because it has so many exclusions. Please ensure you read any prospective Warranty in detail, it will most likely shock you just how little is covered.


So please  don't expect a Lithium batteries warranty to be there to pick up the pieces if things go awry. 


Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Lithium ION batteries of all technologies, whether that is Lithium Iron, Lithium Manganese or Lithium Cobalt, they have transformed our 'micro' world.

However, a Motorhome habitation area battery gets a really, really tough life and the existing electrical environment isn't tuned for Lithiums. It will be a very harsh environment for the average Lithium. 


As an example of the extra care Lithiums require, have a look at the special care documented in the exceptional Votronic MPP250 Solar Regulators manual. In our opinion, Votronic are the battery charging specialists of the moment. The document starts off with -

"LiFePO4 Batteries : Battery protection in case of high temperatures and particularly in case of low temperatures. Highly recommended, if the battery temperature might drop below 0 °C during operation". 

Despite the poor German to English translation it is clearly advocating extra care in both high and especially low temperatures, as charging should not take place at 0 degrees or below, otherwise shortened life, or even damage, can result. 

What happened in 2018 with temperatures? We had temperatures approaching -20 when the Beast from the East arrived followed by internal motorhome temperatures in the 50 degree record Summer.

Re-read the above care document and make your mind up how that can affect a very expensive Lithium set-up. It might survive the first year, but it is going to get a really hard time. 


This is further re-iterated in the next section -

"Keep the batteries cool, LiFePO4 preferably above 0 °C.  Only use complete batteries with (inbuilt) BMS and safety circuit. Total discharge is absolutely to be avoided".

 

Note the strength of the statement not to drop to 100% discharge? That is not from us, but a specialist best of breed charger designer/manufacturer.


But just to throw in a another curved ball, the exceptional Votronic MPP Solar Regulators have an Ace up their sleeve in giving special TLC to Lithiums, the Votronic manual states -

"Automatic trickle charging of the LiFePO4 battery when the vehicle is stopped to maintain a charging state of 50‐80 %, which is advantageous for the battery lifetime." 

In other words it won't keep the battery fully charged, but at a state only between 50% and 80% charged as this is " advantageous for the battery lifetime."   



Not seen such operation documented in any other Solar regulator manual, so a big plus for the class leading Dual battery Votronic.

However, If that is the ideal for optimum life, how will the Lithiums  cope with being on Mains EHU all year at 100% charge? Or on a less sophisticated Solar Charger that always tries to keep them at 100%?

Or being 'over' charged by the Alternator on a long run down to Spain and back?


Lithiums don't take kindly to vibration, and that is exactly what they get in a motorhome on todays roads.


Lithiums don't like being left idle for long periods, but that is exactly what happens in Motorhomes. 


Lithium life is severely affected by elevated temperatures over 30 degrees, but that is exactly when the bulk of the use takes place.


Charging below 0 degrees also causes Stress/damage.


A Motorhome Habitation battery really does operate in an environment that will be far from ideal for a Lithium.

 


Taking all the above into account, I would be surprised if many opting for Lithium in the very unique environment of a Motorhome, see even 30% of the claimed life in real use. 

To qualify that statement : Much of the marketing focuses on Lithium's High current capability, deep discharging, ultra fast charging, etc. and that is why many say they have bought them. Yet that is the exact use that results in shortest life. 

That on it's own is greater stress than Lithiums have been through in any other application. Add on the harsh environmental conditions and imagine the stress a Lithium being discharged by an Inverter at 100Ah right down to 100% DOD? If they survive the stress of that for two years without being bursting into flames, I will be amazed. 


Even in a Tessla Car, which remember has Water Cooled batteries to stabilise temperatures, a Lithium won't be asked to deliver full current for more than a few seconds before the driver has to lift his foot. Cruising speeds will use a fraction of maximum power.

  

Lithium are not a low cost option, one Motorhome owner was invoiced almost £3,000 for his 190Ah Lithium installation. Installation is complex (if done properly). If this installation work isn't done correctly and that damages the battery at 15 months, who will pay? It's not the battery manufacturers fault so their warranty won't cover things. 

Find out if the installation work has a 5 year warranty, or just the usual 12 months.



Click on the Victron Energy Data sheet below for the full data behind our research above and for details of a Lead Acid battery that does discharge to 100% : 


Victron Super Cycle battery.pdf Victron Super Cycle battery.pdf
Size : 114.379 Kb
Type : pdf





Realistic weight comparison - Lithium versus Lead.   

In our comparison the Victron Energy 12-100 weighs 25kg versus the AMPS 100 at 15kg


My maths shows that makes the Lithium about 10kg lighter in it's uninstalled form.

However, if you add on the specialist high power mains charger, Uprated Alternator and specialist Alternator voltage controller, the weight of the chunky cabling, etc. then my maths points  to a weight advantage in favour of the Flooded Battery and at £279 it is a fraction of the cost of a Lithium.

For example, quality cable is typically 0.7kg per metre length. Replacing all the negative and positive cables from the Alternator to the new Lithium battery and all it's high power consumers, will typically take around 6 metres of Red and 6 metres of Black cable. That is 12 metres at 0.7kg a metre = over 8kg just for the cable.

Add on a big 100amp mains charger, an extra 4kg for a bigger Alternator, all the connectors, etc and you can see that a Lithium Iron battery installation isn't going to save much weight, it might actually be heavier.


That of course assumes it is installed safely with appropriate charging systems?


Once again the marketing is deliberately distorting the facts to paint a very different picture to the real situation. 




 


For those still awake, lets take a look at just exactly what 'Lithium Ion' batteries are?


Lithium Ion batteries come in several technological flavours. The more common ones are  :

Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2

Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4)

Lithium Nickel Oxide (LiNiO2)

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) 


The above are all Lithium Ion technologies, there may be other derivatives by the time you read this. It is correct to refer to this group as 'Lithium Ion' batteries as that is the chemistry under which the group operate.

However, the addition of trace elements into their make-up can have quite a dramatic effect on behaviour.


For example, there have been documented reports of Lithium Ion Cobalt technology having 'more power' but they are less safe. Suggest that if you think about using this technology in the Motorhome, you first check your Insurance covers the fitment?

Remember that Lithium is a substance that is highly flammable and contains a lot of energy capable of supporting a very hot, very fierce fire. 

So even when any technology Lithium battery is fully discharged, it is still highly combustible and will burn with great ferocity. 

Charge one fully and it contains even more energy.


The sources I have found suggest Tesla still use Lithium Ion Cobalt, which now might explain this fire on someones drive :


Lithium is very flammable with a very high energy content that causes it to burn very, very hot.  

Remember the Samsung Galaxy Lithium battery fires that affected hundreds of thousands of phones? The Boeing Dreamliner fires? Both quality manufacturers but the batteries still caught fire when stressed. 

Few batteries will get more stress than that of a motorhome habitation battery. Have a look at this video of an Electric Car battery fire : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czW495NMFPw

All cars can catch fire, but it is the flammability and ferocity of a Lithium Battery fire that astonishes, from nothing to an inferno in literally seconds.


We warn of the increased fire risk with AGM batteries that are more prone to Thermal Runaway when stressed, but an AGM  fire starts slowly and takes a while to get hold giving time to evacuate. Lithium is a whole different ball game.


Does the marketing brochure tell you about the real risk of Lithium battery fires? Does it mention it at all in the disadvantages? I have never ever seen it covered yet it is has had major World Wide publicity so there is an awareness around the elevated risk. 




The Lithium Ion technology currently being suggested with potential use in Motorhomes, is Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) with claimed cycle life of up to 2,000 Charge/Discharge cycles. 


The NDS LiFePo4 battery documentation supports the above, it states :

." The number of cycles quoted is purely indicative as it depends on several factors such as environmental conditions, discharge depth, charge/discharge current, and so on ". 

Exactly like a Lead Acid battery.


Don't underestimate the impact some of these factors have on Lithium battery life. For example just a 10 degree temperature rise for many batteries can literally half it's life. While Lithium technologies will give high discharge currents, there is usually a penalty in reduced cycle life because of the heat generated. 

Up to a third lost life may be typical with such use, hence why the best Lithium powered cars are using Water Cooling for the batteries. The Nissan Leaf which is getting more bad publicity re-prematurely failed battery packs, uses Air Cooling, like Motorhome habitation area batteries.



Using anything except a Lithium optimised charger is also accepted will result in shortened life. This is specifically mentioned in the NDS Lithium documentation. The documentation is also very clear about the reduced cycle life caused by long term trickle/float charging by Solar or mains EHU. 

The documentation for the NDS Lithium power pack and the Eza Lithium documents both state the charger must be turned off once the battery is full, or shortened life will result. 

Even very low level Float/trickle charging will result in shortened life. 





The only real area in which Lithium exceeds the best of Lead Acid habitation batteries is in the area of very high discharge/charge current. But that is also a weakness when used in a Motorhome, as Motorhome wiring and charging systems are not designed to cope with such enormous current.
LiFePo4 battery marketing claims discharge currents up to 100amps per 100Ah battery. They also claim to accept up to a 100amp charging rate, but imagine the loading that a 200amp draw from 2 x 100Ah Lithiums will place on a 120Amp Motorhome Alternator.
Remember the prime job of the Alternator is to power the vehicle and only designed to run at about 75% continuous output? The charging  of the habitation batteries is only  a secondary role, so asking a 180amp Alternator, that will only have about 80amps spare continuous current available, to look after 2 x 100Ah Lithiums is going to end in tears. 

Also imagine the major draw from the Alternator that Lithium batteries might try and pull through wiring designed for Wet Acid batteries that charge at 15amps each? 


I am sure some will doubt the validity of my argument, so maybe they can answer why does one of the biggest installers list on their Lithium sales pages that amongst some of the items you need will be heavy 35mm/195amp rated cable?






For a good read on Lithium, try Wiki's : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate



While LiFePo4 batteries can tolerate discharges to very low levels, with lost life, if you take them down below 95% discharge (like accidentally leave them without charging over winter) they can be destroyed.

On this point, you will see that the Battery Management System electronics inside the battery case can continually draw current, even when the battery is disconnected as they usually constantly monitor the battery voltage looking for a 'charge' or some change of state. 
The Sterling Lithium AMPS document lists a 0.1amp constant draw, even when 'Dormant', which I calculate (not good at maths) as 2.4Ah per day or 72Ah a month. 96Ah lost and a totally dead battery inside 43 days? 
Is that right or have I misread?

See - Battery Specifications:
• Positive & negative terminals with bolt/thread & washer
• Prismatic cell type
• LiFePO4 12V (nominal).
• Max charge V=14.8V, Recommended =14.6V, Float V=13.8V
• Cut off voltage: 10V, Cut off temperature: 50°C
• Charge Curve style: CC/CV
• Operational temperature: -30 to +60°C
• Internal consumption: Operational = 10mA, Dormant 0.1mA


That looks like the battery is going to run itself flat very quickly, and if left over a winter, with catastrophic impact? 

Those are seriously expensive consequences for a mistake which is easily made. If you forget about a Wet Acid Lead battery over Winter and let it discharge, the mistake will cost about £100. 
A lapse of memory with Lithium's can result in a £2,000 bill.




We would strongly advise you treat any second user Motorhome you consider buying that has Lithium batteries installed with GREAT caution unless the Warranty on the equipment is unlimited and covers the claims of 'Ten year life'. You will have no idea how badly they may have been stressed, so what the fire risk might be.

Long term Motorhome reliability and usability will, in our opinion, be compromised. Trying to get anyone to look at any issues after the 12 months installation warranty expires may be a challenge, even assuming they understand both batteries and the Sargent, Schaudt, Nordelettronica, etc  Power Controllers that have been bypassed to fit the Lithium batteries.

What happens to the motorhome warranty in respect of major surgery on a motorhomes wiring? Will the Power Controller from Sargent, Schaudt, Nordelettronica, etc. be covered if it has been bypassed? 

What happens if you are in Spain and the battery, or it's Battery Management System electronics, fails? You can't just fit a Lead acid battery as the Lithium install has bypassed how it was wired previously. I think when Pedro sees a EZA130 install, and has to fit a temporary Lead Acid battery to get you through the holiday, there will be much head scratching and you will hear lots of muttering.

These batteries have inbuilt electronics modules inside the battery case for each Cell. 
How high is the build quality? What do you do if the electronics malfunctions and the Lithium cells are destroyed? 
Here is an example of what it looks like inside a battery casing with the electronics sitting on top of the Lithium Cells.




One Lithium pack we saw had been fitted into an Autotrail with a Sargent EC325 Charger/power controller utilising the existing mains charger. Yet it is universally known that this charger puts out 18v to boost charge it's Lead Acid batteries. 
You can guess the damage done to the LiFePo4 battery after being fried with 18v?  Don't assume the installer knows motorhome electronics.



In 3 other motorhomes we have had in, the owners were disappointed with the actual amount of usable power they got from the Lithium battery. In our limited testing, all three batteries had lost significant capacity, yet were all less than 2 years old.


The worst was an EZA130 which gave back less than half it's 'rated' capacity before the Battery Management System shutdown and stopped all power being drawn. It no longer performed like an EZA 130, but a EZA 60.
Whether that was a fault in the Lithium cells or the Lithium Battery Management System malfunctioning I have no idea, but an interesting one for the warranty.

The EZA 130 documentation specifically states that the charger must be disconnected once the battery is fully charged.
Long term 'Trickle' charging a Lithium power pack is something that will reduce it's life, significantly. 
The NDS documentation also states the same, that once charged the charger should be turned off, not continue to Float/trickle the battery or it will suffer.

I don't know if being left on long term EHU was the issue with this EZA 130 we saw, but it did have permanent Solar.



One last thought:
The marketing men make much of the 'faster charging Lithium' capability, and it is true some 100Ah versions can accept up to 100amps charge. However, if they are installed with the same motorhome 18amp charger used to charge Lead acid batteries, they will charge at 18amps. 
Only if 100 amp mains chargers are installed will a Lithium achieve a 100 amp charge rate, that is just physics.

So, bearing that in mind, why have all the installations we have seen, only had the standard or low power additional mains chargers or just as bad, 30 amp battery to battery chargers? 

In one installation the salesmen had made much of the fact that the 2 x 100Ah Lithiums they were installing would charge ultra fast, yet the 'uprated' mains charger was just 25 amps peak output. The most it will charge at continuously, once it gets hot, is about 20amps, about the same rate as a quality Wet Acid Powerframe battery requires. 
The Alternator and wiring were untouched during the Lithium installation. Clearly the 'fast charging' the customer specifically wanted on the move would never be achieved. 

When we sent him back to the installer, they offered him a CTEK 250 B2B as a 'solution' - that is a poor 25amp (peak) Battery to Battery charger that struggles to charge two decent Wet batteries !! 

  



Just because some techno wizzkid has DIY fitted Lithium with good results in his Motorhome, doesn't mean your 'Professional' fit install will be as successful. 

Those people fitting Lithium pack themselves, generally have a huge amount of background knowledge that enables them to both integrate it correctly AND because they generally understand batteries and battery technology, they can use that knowledge to manage the 'features' of the technology. I.E. work around it's limitations.






Lithium Battery elevated Fire risk as the batteries age?
The Battery University website writes :   
"Quality lithium-ion batteries are safe if used as intended. However, a high number of heat and fire failures had been reported in consumer products that use non-certified batteries, and the hoverboard is an example. This may have been solved with the use of certified Li-ion on most current models. 
A UL official at a meeting in the Washington, D.C. area said that no new incidents of overheating or fire had been reported since Li-ion in hoverboards went through a  certification process. 
Fires originating in the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 were due to a manufacturing defect that had been solved. The main battery in the Boeing 787 Dreamliner also had defects that were resolved".

 


If you do install Lithium batteries, we suggest that because any fire will take hold very rapidly and be exceptionally fierce, that you don't install the batteries in a way that would limit a rapid emergency evacuation. For example, not near a door or under the Drivers/passengers Seats. 
While it is universally accepted that the risk is low, bear in mind a Motorhome habitation battery has the toughest life of any battery type so the environment is particularly harsh, therefore the batteries more prone to damage, shorting and fire. The below article highlights areas where additional damage can result, again elevating the risk. You will note one line of advice is never fully discharge a Lithium battery.


If anyone asks me why they shouldn't install the current batch of Lithium technology batteries, 'Fire hazard' would be my first response.




Heat and vibration can create defects in a Lithium battery. 
This extract is from a specialist site :-

"Usage that stresses Lithium batteries are excessive vibration, elevated heat ...  

Li-ion batteries should not be fully discharged

Additionally they should not be left without some remaining charge. Li-ion batteries must not dip below 2V/cell for any length of time. 

Copper 'shunts' form inside the cells that can lead to elevated self discharge or a partial electrical short. 

If  affected cells are reused, the cells might become unstable, causing excessive heat or showing other anomalies.
Heat combined with a full charge is said to induce more stress to Li-ion than regular cycling.

Harsh vibration 

The drawing of high currents can stress a Lithium, that may later lead to issues. 

Prolonged high current draw elevates this stress which, as noted above, can lead to issues".



Issues charging Lithium's at Cold temperatures.

Again from Battery University.  

"Another safety issue is cold temperature charging. Consumer grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the packs appear to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium occurs on the anode while on a sub-freezing charge. The plating is permanent and cannot be removed. 

If done repeatedly, such damage can compromise the safety of the pack. The battery will become more vulnerable to failure if subjected to impact or high rate charging".



Note how often issues from 'High rate currents' and heat crops up in the above safety paragraphs in stressing a Lithium pack. 


So if these batteries will get a really hard time in a motorhome AND the marketing is actually targeting buyers that will specifically use them in high stress applications, like for the high current draw of an Inverter or high speed/current charging, Deep discharging "to 100% DOD", etc. then you can see it won't be a match made in heaven.


Like we have already said, a Lithium will be in for a very hard time as a motorhome habitation battery, IMO, raising the risk of premature failure and fire. 


Formula E racing cars are developing the technology massively, which also has to be safe in extreme vibration, heat and high loading situations, these will more closely match the environment in a motorhome. 

Since 2014 Formula E racing has driven battery technology at an incredible pace. Power has doubled, yet LiFePo4 technology just doesn't feature, so does it have a future?.

  

Formula E electric racing cars, now watched by 200 million viewers around the world,  apparently use different lithium technology, this extract explains -

  "The chemical composition inside Formula E's Lithium batteries is a closely-guarded technical secret, but one possibility is that McLaren is using a nickel-heavy design, with 811 chemistry, using 8 parts nickel for every 1 part cobalt and 1 part manganese. 811 formulas are well known, but are thought to be years away from commercial production. An alternate explanation is that McLaren may have added a breakthrough ingredient: Aluminium.

    Aluminium batteries have high energy density and fast charging times, plus zero flammability. The drawback is poor battery life, but adding graphite can counter the problem, according to scientists at Stanford University.
Vanadium batteries could theoretically deliver similar results, but less testing on vanadium has been done".


Sony manufacture the Formula E Lithium cells and they are assembled by Mclaren. 



If you want to know how skilled the people are fitting these things, then have a read of this as an example :-

This photograph below is from a customer who wrote -
"Hello Allan, I have a problem with my Hymer MLTxxx, 
I recently had 2 new Lithium batteries fitted. when the engineer was doing the fitting he connected them with the polarity reversed. This blew the 50 amp habitation fuse and the 50 amp Start battery fuse". 





Not only didn't the engineer understand what he was working on (the 2 x 100Ah lithiums will try to draw way more than the old 50amp fuses and wiring will support) but if you look at the Solar install it is also very poor.
The Solar regulator doesn't have a Lithium optimised profile. It's a low quality, single battery Solar charger that does not use either Schaudt's or Hymer's recommended way of wiring Solar to the EBL.

The Elektroblock charger is not optimised for Lithium so it is unlikely the Alternator will be either.

Lithiums are about BIG currents, the wiring must be upgraded as a minimum for safety.

This isn't what we would hold up as grade A installation, but each to his own.





A typical Lithium Iron retailers Sales document : 


Vanbitz AMPS Lithium battery.pdf Vanbitz AMPS Lithium battery.pdf
Size : 10269.336 Kb
Type : pdf

Note the quote - "As the lithium gives 100% of the power as useful power so 1 x lithium = 2 x lead acid for power", when Votronic say above to never discharge a Lithium fully.



You will also note the complete absence of any mention of a fire risk, or ways to mitigate this. No advice on Fire Extinguisher type, size, location, ability, etc or even advice on where to locate the battery so exits are not compromised.

Over the last year there have been many new reports of AGM batteries exploding and the risk of fire with Lithium is higher than any motorhome battery previously.
Lithium is so flammable it raises the stakes by a huge factor.